We always perceive and reason things in perspective with our limited senses and mental capacities. We are thus incapable of going beyond these limitations. One of my favorite verses - Ecclesiastes 3:11 - essentially makes this case, stating that God has placed eternity into our hearts, but He has not given us the capacity to understand it. So we exist as a body-soul-spirit image of the Triune nature God Himself - our very created being and the created universe around us has His thumbprints all over it.
And in all of it, He has given us free agency - a will. The same will, I might add, that Angels and the Cherubim have - otherwise the heavenly rebellion of Satan would never have taken place.
Without this agency, there is no such thing as:
A) Love
B) Obedience
C) Joy
Couple things worth mentioning about God - in Revelation, we find the Apostle John looking into heaven at the very throne of God and what does he see? He sees a rainbow like emerald, wrapped around the throne of Heaven. This is an interesting sight - it strongly reminds us of the promise God made to never destroy the inhabitants of earth again with a flood. For the ultimate, all-powerful, completely sovereign in all things God, He has set LIMITS on Himself - a throne states, "I am the authority and can do as I wish" while a promise states, "I will do what I say I will do."
God made a covenant with man - a covenant is a legal agreement - also which necessarily binds God to His own word - a restriction in many ways.
What manner of creation are we that such an infinite mind, totally omnipotent, omniscient God would care to make an agreement with, much less direct His only Son to be so brutally sacrificed in our place for our transgressions?
"We always perceive and reason things in perspective with our limited senses and mental capacities. We are thus incapable of going beyond these limitations."
People who say that there are no realities beyond this world that we can see are making their minds the limit of what we can see and know. But the shepherds in the fields at night who saw the angels knew that there was more to reality than that.
Excellent, Joe! Really well done. It flows beautifully and is well-written. You wrote a great essay.
It makes me think of today's world.
The Jewish State (and Christian America firmly behind it) is convicted of genocide in the International Court of Justice. The Muslim children of Abraham in Gaza can rightly pose similar questions to the end of your essay. "... here also we may say that a criminal act of monstrous inhumanity was carried out by evil men in the service of Satan." 25,000 Gazans are reported dead. The death toll of 9-11 is exceeded every two weeks.
God could easily have prevented it. But He did (and has) not. I do not know how Muslims process this evil that they face. For their sakes, I wish that they could receive the salvation (healing) of Jesus and redemption. I guess I can pray for that.
And to paraphrase your conclusion:
"So much of the American people and the American government [and Israel's people, if not government] had long since declared their independence from God – what right do we as a nation now have to expect anything from God, except for further indifference to the troubles assailing us [and the additional struggles, self-sacrifice, repentance, humility, faith, denial of self, obedience to God and long and difficult inward transformations that will inevitably arise from "Our" attacks].
. . .
"It is a world in which the human spirit must coexist in the face of the realities of evil, sickness, danger, death, and foolishness, mistakes, and accidents – and if God should postpone the final destruction of evil and the manifestation of a new heaven and a new earth until all of his purposes for us should be fully realized, that is his prerogative."
Many thanks for your detailed comments and observations!
It is often easier to make assertions than to refute them, and I am afraid it will take me some time to go through your most significant points. I will try to be brief, but may have to break this up into shorter consecutive answers to get it all in the Substack answer format. It will not accept comments if they are too long.
You begin by saying that that the Jewish State (and Christian America firmly behind it) is convicted of genocide in the international court of Justice. I believe you are in error on several counts.
First, America is not now, and has never been a Christian country – though there was a strong Christian influence in the past. Jesus said “Strait is the gate and narrow is the way and few there be that find it.” By this rule, there has never been a Christian country anywhere in the world (Calvin’s Geneva and Puritan New England were not countries). An attempt was made in England in the 1600s but it failed completely. Jesus also said to Pilate, “My kingdom is not of this world.”
Secondly, concerning the ICJ, as far as I can see with my limited knowledge of the subject, Israel was not actually convicted. The articles linked below state that the court did not dismiss the accusations, which would have been a victory for Israel, but neither did it confirm the accusation of genocide and issue an injunction, which would have been a victory for South Africa. Rather, the court delivered an interim injunction that said Israel should take all measures to minimize casualties, “The court did not rule on South Africa's accusations Israel has been committing,” but has left that up for further deliberations.
Even if the court did find Israel guilty that would prove nothing. The United States Supreme Court, one of the most powerful and prestigious courts in the entire world, decided at one point that black slaves were property (Dredd Scott, 1857) and that separate but equal facilities for different races were constitutional (Plessy vs. Ferguson, 1896). There are plenty of other cases on lower levels where someone has been wrongly convicted. Courts are not infallible institutions and judges too can have ideological and political agendas. Sometimes, in the USA, dishonest prosecutors have even concealed evidence or denied the accused basic rights.
Also, the ICJ definition of genocide is defective (if this quote is verbatim and not just a summary). It reads:
"Genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: (a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."
Wouldn't points (a), (b) and (c) convict the British and the Americans of genocide for their attacks on the poor helpless innocent Germans in WW2? Did the Allies offend against (a)? Yes. Against (b)? Yes. Against (c)? Yes. It completely omits the question of motive and of military objectives.
The Allies were not guilty of war crimes because they had a legitimate military objective - the destruction of Hitler. They were not trying to wipe out all of the Germans, which would be real genocide, the attempt to exterminate an entire people. Similarly, the Israelis have a legitimate military objective in destroying Hamas, and are not fighting against the Palestinian people.
If Hamas would surrender and release the hostages the war could be over today. And if previously the blind and hate-filled fanatics of Hamas had concentrated on building up the economy of the Gaza strip and benefitting the Palestinians instead of pursuing a crazy, Nazi-like blood lust for killing Jews there would have been no war at all. So all of the blame, falls squarely on Hamas. And in all of the years in which Hamas has been firing thousands of missiles at civilian targets in Israel – by definition a war crime, targeting civilians - did the ICJ have anything to say about it? Somehow I don’t think so.
Moreover, the charge that the Israelis have been systematically trying to wipe out the entire Palestinian people or the entire population of Gaza is such a ridiculous lie, one so completely contradicted by all obvious facts, that any one who utters it is at best badly misinformed, and at worst deliberately stating what they know to be false.
In either case, they are in violation of one of the Ten Commandments about bearing false witness - and we read in James that he who has broken one of the commandments has broken them all.
One other point: here is a note I posted on Substack some time ago about South Africa’s dubious political motivations in bringing this false charge against Israel https://substack.com/@joekeysor1/note/c-47238854
South Africa has one of the highest violent crime rates in the world. They can’t even govern their own country, and they want to interfere in Israel’s security issues? Here is an excerpt from that note, giving a couple more reasons for their farcical lawsuit.
"That alone does not explain the hostility [of South Africa to Israel]. An additional factor is the presence of sizable and vocal Muslim communities in every major South African city. Moreover, the South African Muslim community is dominated by radical elements. Though a small minority of the overall South African population, Muslims are well represented in the professions, in the media, and in politics. Jews, too, are highly visible in these fields, but there are fewer of them, and as “whites,” their voices are seen as less legitimate.
"Another factor is the dysfunction of the South African government, which is so corrupt and incompetent that the country can barely keep the lights on. Since the early 2000s, the ANC has found the Israeli-Palestinian conflict a useful way to distract the population by reigniting its old “struggle” politics, with Israel cast (falsely) as the old regime."
You go on to say that the Israeli assault on Hamas is “a criminal act of monstrous inhumanity,” like the terrorist attack on 9-11.
Just so I can be sure where you are coming from, do you see any difference between the Germans bombing London and the British bombing Berlin in WW2? I do. I see a difference between Churchill and Hitler, and I see a difference between Osama bin Laden’s attacks and Israel defending its right to exist.
In Romans chapter 13 Paul states that God has given governments the power of the sword to punish and restrain evil. The states of Israel, and of Japan, and France, and Chile have according to this both the right and the duty to protect their citizens. This does not give Hitler license to try and conquer the world, or Hamas the right to try and destroy Israel – and we can see the benefits that the Hamas policy has brought to the people of Gaza.
About 25,000 reported dead, where do you get those statistics? From the mass media. Where do they get them? From the Hamas Ministry of Health, Rape, Torture and Murder. I do not believe a word Hamas says, and would not be at all surprised if the casualty statistics mere less than half of what they claim – and I have some reasons for saying this.
First, they have a very powerful incentive to inflate the numbers because diplomatic pressure is their most effective weapon now. Without it, there is a real possibility that the Israelis will finally kill them all, or take them prisoner.
A second reason for my not believing their claims is that much of the fighting has been taking place in areas from which civilians have been evacuated. Even before mass evacuations, the IDF gave warnings before buildings were blown up.
Thirdly, when the al-Ahli hospital was first thought to have been blown up by Israelis, Hamas instantaneously claimed that 500 people have been killed. Once it turned out that the explosion was caused by a Palestinian missile (as evidenced by the very slight amount of damage) the estimated casualty count dropped to “scores.”
You say you don’t know how the Muslims in Gaza process that. I have seen a couple of videos showing the people of Gaza protesting against Hamas, recognizing that Hamas is the cause of their woes. Here is a video of an elderly Palestinian woman surprising an Al Jazeera reporter by denouncing Hamas for stealing humanitarian aid. https://www.memri.org/tv/elderly-palestinian-woman-argue-jazeera-hamas-aid-tunnels
You say “For their sakes, I wish that they could receive the salvation (healing) of Jesus and redemption. I guess I can pray for that.” Perhaps you mean that, but your subtle use of irony (sarcasm?) elsewhere leaves me somewhat confused, so I am not sure how to take this. If someone went to Gaza to tell them about Christ he would almost certainly be killed. Here is a link to an interview with a Palestinian-American Christian who worked in Gaza. He describes how one of his Arabic Christian co-workers was murdered by Hamas and how the few Palestinian Christians in Gaza were finally compelled to leave Gaza to save their lives. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xn7RpnuXXs4
Then you add this quote of your own to my conclusion:
"and the additional struggles, self-sacrifice, repentance, humility, faith, denial of self, obedience to God and long and difficult inward transformations that will inevitably arise from "Our" attacks."
Forgive me if I misunderstand you, but it sounds as if you are saying that America will suffer more problems because of our own attacks – or, attacks by Israel supported by America. But I was referring here to the salvation of individuals, as they seek to live out the Christian life. As far as I understand it, this has nothing to do with any government or foreign policy.
Finally, to conclude, you quoted my last paragraph verbatim:
"It is a world in which the human spirit must coexist in the face of the realities of evil, sickness, danger, death, and foolishness, mistakes, and accidents – and if God should postpone the final destruction of evil and the manifestation of a new heaven and a new earth until all of his purposes for us should be fully realized, that is his prerogative."
Once again, I am not sure what you meant by posting it. Possibly you thought it was really good, or maybe you didn’t. Maybe you thought it was excessively rhetorical, Who knows? I wonder if the quote is consistent with your understanding (I notice you refer to yourself as a “brother in Christ of many” on your website) or if you see it as misguided or erroneous in some way.
Thanks for your thoughtful comments. Starting with the most important part. Everything theological is sincere and comes from my heart. When I write something, I know that I will be accountable to Jesus for it one day. (And, I pray every morning to build God's kingdom through my thoughts and actions). I write in that context.
I think that you and I see the motives and actions of the Gazans and Hamas very differently. This is your blog. I am a guest here, commenting. I hope that I did not cause too much disruption to you.
When I wrote that I don't how Gazans can process what I see as a disaster for them; I do not see anything besides the healing salvation and redemption of Jesus that could help them to make sense of their situation. I don't think there is anything in Islam that would help (as I understand Islam) with something that I see as so devastating.
In my second to last paragraph about America: I quote you in saying that American deserves no better than God's indifference (and I say this in agreement with you that it is not a Christian nation; I had the word "purported" in my comment but edited out) . But to me, as a Christian, there is hope: that her people can be saved through the things that you identify in your last paragraph: "the additional struggles, self-sacrifice, repentance, humility, faith, denial of self, obedience to God and long and difficult inward transformations" (that I see arising from "Our" attacks on Gaza, Yemen, Lebanon, and Iran, as the US gets walloped in a variety of ways).
I think that America will be defeated if it engages in direct war with those countries. And I think that America will be the first to attack. And I think that those attacks will be unjustified and sinful. I think that this will result in suffering in the US. And I pray that Americans will turn back to God and repent of all of the sins in our country (going way beyond the destruction that we bring upon ourselves by going to war).
I think that's all for now. Thanks again for a very thoughtful essay and a thoughtful response.
Finally, the 25,000 death number comes fro the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs. It is recognized as authoritative. Hamas is claiming numbers twice this.
I quoted your final sentence as my conclusion because I think that it is a great conclusion, and I am in complete agreement.
Many thanks for your clarification. I was not exactly sure where you were coming from in a couple of places but should have clarified that with a few questions before proceeding so hastily.
Christ and the apostles never discussed politics – and there was a lot they could have said about the Roman Empire, Herod and Pilate. But their focus was elsewhere. I have often thought I get too worked up about earthly things and need to be more spiritually minded.
As to our seeing the Gaza situation very differently, “We see through a glass darkly,” as Paul said. We as humans are often wrong. naturally, I believe it is right to say that Israel has a right to exist and to defend itself, but that does not mean I am obligated to agree with every Israeli act and policy at all times. Even in the Old Testament period when God was working directly with Israel in a much more visible way, there were wicked kings and moral problems. Isaiah chapter 1 speaks a lot about the sinfulness of Israel.
About your comments causing disruption, there is no need for concern about that. In fact, I was too argumentative in a couple of places - a good lesson for me! That is a recurring problem with social media, it is too easy to dash something off.
About the healing salvation and redemption of Christ, neither the Israelis not the Arabs (with few exceptions) are following the teachings of Christ. If they were, there would be no conflict to begin with. That is nothing against Arabs or Israelis, the same could be said of the entire world. So many are looking for ways to achieve world peace without knowing that the best peace plan is in the Sermon on the Mount.
About your having hope in spite of the fact that America is not a Christian nation, I confess I should be more hopeful than I am.
You said “I quote you in saying that American deserves no better than God's indifference (and I say this in agreement with you that it is not a Christian nation; I had the word "purported" in my comment but edited out) . But to me, as a Christian, there is hope: that her people can be saved through the things that you identify in your last paragraph: "the additional struggles, self-sacrifice, repentance, humility, faith, denial of self, obedience to God and long and difficult inward transformations" (that I see arising from "Our" attacks on Gaza, Yemen, Lebanon, and Iran, as the US gets walloped in a variety of ways)."
About God’s indifference to America, I meant in that particular situation of 9-11, in not intervening to prevent it. I wouldn’t want to say that God was entirely indifferent to all that we say and do, which would be a very unbiblical thing of me to say. There is a passage where God says that people will cry out to him and he will not listen (Micah 3:4).
I believe that Romans 13 gives governments the right and the duty to defend their citizens by war if necessary, but many of America’s wars have not been about defending America at all. Think of all we could have done with the trillions squandered in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan and who knows where else.
And I think America is already suffering in many ways because of sinfulness both on the national and the personal level. Personally, I expect these negative trends to continue, but then I don’t claim to know the future.
It would be good if as you say Americans would turn back to God and repent. There should be more emphasis in that area. Conviction for sin is also part of the Christian message, without which Christ’s forgiveness means nothing.
Thanks also for your comments and your eirenic spirit. Once again, I should have made some inquiries first to find out more about where you were coming from.
About the statistics, I have never seen anyone claim 50,000 casualties, but confess I have not researched it. It is possible that the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs is itself less than objective. There has long been strong anti-Israel sentiment in the UN (look at the developments with UNRWA for example). But not knowing myself, it would have been better for me to raise questions more tentatively.
I am glad to have your agreement with my last paragraph. It is part of the answer to the complex problem of evil. We can look at that problem in an entirely different light if we understand that the purpose of life is not for us to life lives of perfect ease, pleasure and prosperity.
We always perceive and reason things in perspective with our limited senses and mental capacities. We are thus incapable of going beyond these limitations. One of my favorite verses - Ecclesiastes 3:11 - essentially makes this case, stating that God has placed eternity into our hearts, but He has not given us the capacity to understand it. So we exist as a body-soul-spirit image of the Triune nature God Himself - our very created being and the created universe around us has His thumbprints all over it.
And in all of it, He has given us free agency - a will. The same will, I might add, that Angels and the Cherubim have - otherwise the heavenly rebellion of Satan would never have taken place.
Without this agency, there is no such thing as:
A) Love
B) Obedience
C) Joy
Couple things worth mentioning about God - in Revelation, we find the Apostle John looking into heaven at the very throne of God and what does he see? He sees a rainbow like emerald, wrapped around the throne of Heaven. This is an interesting sight - it strongly reminds us of the promise God made to never destroy the inhabitants of earth again with a flood. For the ultimate, all-powerful, completely sovereign in all things God, He has set LIMITS on Himself - a throne states, "I am the authority and can do as I wish" while a promise states, "I will do what I say I will do."
God made a covenant with man - a covenant is a legal agreement - also which necessarily binds God to His own word - a restriction in many ways.
What manner of creation are we that such an infinite mind, totally omnipotent, omniscient God would care to make an agreement with, much less direct His only Son to be so brutally sacrificed in our place for our transgressions?
"We always perceive and reason things in perspective with our limited senses and mental capacities. We are thus incapable of going beyond these limitations."
People who say that there are no realities beyond this world that we can see are making their minds the limit of what we can see and know. But the shepherds in the fields at night who saw the angels knew that there was more to reality than that.
Excellent, Joe! Really well done. It flows beautifully and is well-written. You wrote a great essay.
It makes me think of today's world.
The Jewish State (and Christian America firmly behind it) is convicted of genocide in the International Court of Justice. The Muslim children of Abraham in Gaza can rightly pose similar questions to the end of your essay. "... here also we may say that a criminal act of monstrous inhumanity was carried out by evil men in the service of Satan." 25,000 Gazans are reported dead. The death toll of 9-11 is exceeded every two weeks.
God could easily have prevented it. But He did (and has) not. I do not know how Muslims process this evil that they face. For their sakes, I wish that they could receive the salvation (healing) of Jesus and redemption. I guess I can pray for that.
And to paraphrase your conclusion:
"So much of the American people and the American government [and Israel's people, if not government] had long since declared their independence from God – what right do we as a nation now have to expect anything from God, except for further indifference to the troubles assailing us [and the additional struggles, self-sacrifice, repentance, humility, faith, denial of self, obedience to God and long and difficult inward transformations that will inevitably arise from "Our" attacks].
. . .
"It is a world in which the human spirit must coexist in the face of the realities of evil, sickness, danger, death, and foolishness, mistakes, and accidents – and if God should postpone the final destruction of evil and the manifestation of a new heaven and a new earth until all of his purposes for us should be fully realized, that is his prerogative."
Hello Jeff, (1 of 2)
Many thanks for your detailed comments and observations!
It is often easier to make assertions than to refute them, and I am afraid it will take me some time to go through your most significant points. I will try to be brief, but may have to break this up into shorter consecutive answers to get it all in the Substack answer format. It will not accept comments if they are too long.
You begin by saying that that the Jewish State (and Christian America firmly behind it) is convicted of genocide in the international court of Justice. I believe you are in error on several counts.
First, America is not now, and has never been a Christian country – though there was a strong Christian influence in the past. Jesus said “Strait is the gate and narrow is the way and few there be that find it.” By this rule, there has never been a Christian country anywhere in the world (Calvin’s Geneva and Puritan New England were not countries). An attempt was made in England in the 1600s but it failed completely. Jesus also said to Pilate, “My kingdom is not of this world.”
Secondly, concerning the ICJ, as far as I can see with my limited knowledge of the subject, Israel was not actually convicted. The articles linked below state that the court did not dismiss the accusations, which would have been a victory for Israel, but neither did it confirm the accusation of genocide and issue an injunction, which would have been a victory for South Africa. Rather, the court delivered an interim injunction that said Israel should take all measures to minimize casualties, “The court did not rule on South Africa's accusations Israel has been committing,” but has left that up for further deliberations.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-01-27/international-court-of-justice-ruling-israel/103393432
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-01-26/icj-rules-israel-must-take-measures-to-prevent-genocide/103386640
Even if the court did find Israel guilty that would prove nothing. The United States Supreme Court, one of the most powerful and prestigious courts in the entire world, decided at one point that black slaves were property (Dredd Scott, 1857) and that separate but equal facilities for different races were constitutional (Plessy vs. Ferguson, 1896). There are plenty of other cases on lower levels where someone has been wrongly convicted. Courts are not infallible institutions and judges too can have ideological and political agendas. Sometimes, in the USA, dishonest prosecutors have even concealed evidence or denied the accused basic rights.
Also, the ICJ definition of genocide is defective (if this quote is verbatim and not just a summary). It reads:
"Genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: (a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."
Wouldn't points (a), (b) and (c) convict the British and the Americans of genocide for their attacks on the poor helpless innocent Germans in WW2? Did the Allies offend against (a)? Yes. Against (b)? Yes. Against (c)? Yes. It completely omits the question of motive and of military objectives.
The Allies were not guilty of war crimes because they had a legitimate military objective - the destruction of Hitler. They were not trying to wipe out all of the Germans, which would be real genocide, the attempt to exterminate an entire people. Similarly, the Israelis have a legitimate military objective in destroying Hamas, and are not fighting against the Palestinian people.
If Hamas would surrender and release the hostages the war could be over today. And if previously the blind and hate-filled fanatics of Hamas had concentrated on building up the economy of the Gaza strip and benefitting the Palestinians instead of pursuing a crazy, Nazi-like blood lust for killing Jews there would have been no war at all. So all of the blame, falls squarely on Hamas. And in all of the years in which Hamas has been firing thousands of missiles at civilian targets in Israel – by definition a war crime, targeting civilians - did the ICJ have anything to say about it? Somehow I don’t think so.
Moreover, the charge that the Israelis have been systematically trying to wipe out the entire Palestinian people or the entire population of Gaza is such a ridiculous lie, one so completely contradicted by all obvious facts, that any one who utters it is at best badly misinformed, and at worst deliberately stating what they know to be false.
In either case, they are in violation of one of the Ten Commandments about bearing false witness - and we read in James that he who has broken one of the commandments has broken them all.
One other point: here is a note I posted on Substack some time ago about South Africa’s dubious political motivations in bringing this false charge against Israel https://substack.com/@joekeysor1/note/c-47238854
South Africa has one of the highest violent crime rates in the world. They can’t even govern their own country, and they want to interfere in Israel’s security issues? Here is an excerpt from that note, giving a couple more reasons for their farcical lawsuit.
"That alone does not explain the hostility [of South Africa to Israel]. An additional factor is the presence of sizable and vocal Muslim communities in every major South African city. Moreover, the South African Muslim community is dominated by radical elements. Though a small minority of the overall South African population, Muslims are well represented in the professions, in the media, and in politics. Jews, too, are highly visible in these fields, but there are fewer of them, and as “whites,” their voices are seen as less legitimate.
"Another factor is the dysfunction of the South African government, which is so corrupt and incompetent that the country can barely keep the lights on. Since the early 2000s, the ANC has found the Israeli-Palestinian conflict a useful way to distract the population by reigniting its old “struggle” politics, with Israel cast (falsely) as the old regime."
2/2
You go on to say that the Israeli assault on Hamas is “a criminal act of monstrous inhumanity,” like the terrorist attack on 9-11.
Just so I can be sure where you are coming from, do you see any difference between the Germans bombing London and the British bombing Berlin in WW2? I do. I see a difference between Churchill and Hitler, and I see a difference between Osama bin Laden’s attacks and Israel defending its right to exist.
In Romans chapter 13 Paul states that God has given governments the power of the sword to punish and restrain evil. The states of Israel, and of Japan, and France, and Chile have according to this both the right and the duty to protect their citizens. This does not give Hitler license to try and conquer the world, or Hamas the right to try and destroy Israel – and we can see the benefits that the Hamas policy has brought to the people of Gaza.
About 25,000 reported dead, where do you get those statistics? From the mass media. Where do they get them? From the Hamas Ministry of Health, Rape, Torture and Murder. I do not believe a word Hamas says, and would not be at all surprised if the casualty statistics mere less than half of what they claim – and I have some reasons for saying this.
First, they have a very powerful incentive to inflate the numbers because diplomatic pressure is their most effective weapon now. Without it, there is a real possibility that the Israelis will finally kill them all, or take them prisoner.
A second reason for my not believing their claims is that much of the fighting has been taking place in areas from which civilians have been evacuated. Even before mass evacuations, the IDF gave warnings before buildings were blown up.
Thirdly, when the al-Ahli hospital was first thought to have been blown up by Israelis, Hamas instantaneously claimed that 500 people have been killed. Once it turned out that the explosion was caused by a Palestinian missile (as evidenced by the very slight amount of damage) the estimated casualty count dropped to “scores.”
You say you don’t know how the Muslims in Gaza process that. I have seen a couple of videos showing the people of Gaza protesting against Hamas, recognizing that Hamas is the cause of their woes. Here is a video of an elderly Palestinian woman surprising an Al Jazeera reporter by denouncing Hamas for stealing humanitarian aid. https://www.memri.org/tv/elderly-palestinian-woman-argue-jazeera-hamas-aid-tunnels
You say “For their sakes, I wish that they could receive the salvation (healing) of Jesus and redemption. I guess I can pray for that.” Perhaps you mean that, but your subtle use of irony (sarcasm?) elsewhere leaves me somewhat confused, so I am not sure how to take this. If someone went to Gaza to tell them about Christ he would almost certainly be killed. Here is a link to an interview with a Palestinian-American Christian who worked in Gaza. He describes how one of his Arabic Christian co-workers was murdered by Hamas and how the few Palestinian Christians in Gaza were finally compelled to leave Gaza to save their lives. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xn7RpnuXXs4
Then you add this quote of your own to my conclusion:
"and the additional struggles, self-sacrifice, repentance, humility, faith, denial of self, obedience to God and long and difficult inward transformations that will inevitably arise from "Our" attacks."
Forgive me if I misunderstand you, but it sounds as if you are saying that America will suffer more problems because of our own attacks – or, attacks by Israel supported by America. But I was referring here to the salvation of individuals, as they seek to live out the Christian life. As far as I understand it, this has nothing to do with any government or foreign policy.
Finally, to conclude, you quoted my last paragraph verbatim:
"It is a world in which the human spirit must coexist in the face of the realities of evil, sickness, danger, death, and foolishness, mistakes, and accidents – and if God should postpone the final destruction of evil and the manifestation of a new heaven and a new earth until all of his purposes for us should be fully realized, that is his prerogative."
Once again, I am not sure what you meant by posting it. Possibly you thought it was really good, or maybe you didn’t. Maybe you thought it was excessively rhetorical, Who knows? I wonder if the quote is consistent with your understanding (I notice you refer to yourself as a “brother in Christ of many” on your website) or if you see it as misguided or erroneous in some way.
Joe,
Thanks for your thoughtful comments. Starting with the most important part. Everything theological is sincere and comes from my heart. When I write something, I know that I will be accountable to Jesus for it one day. (And, I pray every morning to build God's kingdom through my thoughts and actions). I write in that context.
I think that you and I see the motives and actions of the Gazans and Hamas very differently. This is your blog. I am a guest here, commenting. I hope that I did not cause too much disruption to you.
When I wrote that I don't how Gazans can process what I see as a disaster for them; I do not see anything besides the healing salvation and redemption of Jesus that could help them to make sense of their situation. I don't think there is anything in Islam that would help (as I understand Islam) with something that I see as so devastating.
In my second to last paragraph about America: I quote you in saying that American deserves no better than God's indifference (and I say this in agreement with you that it is not a Christian nation; I had the word "purported" in my comment but edited out) . But to me, as a Christian, there is hope: that her people can be saved through the things that you identify in your last paragraph: "the additional struggles, self-sacrifice, repentance, humility, faith, denial of self, obedience to God and long and difficult inward transformations" (that I see arising from "Our" attacks on Gaza, Yemen, Lebanon, and Iran, as the US gets walloped in a variety of ways).
I think that America will be defeated if it engages in direct war with those countries. And I think that America will be the first to attack. And I think that those attacks will be unjustified and sinful. I think that this will result in suffering in the US. And I pray that Americans will turn back to God and repent of all of the sins in our country (going way beyond the destruction that we bring upon ourselves by going to war).
I think that's all for now. Thanks again for a very thoughtful essay and a thoughtful response.
Finally, the 25,000 death number comes fro the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs. It is recognized as authoritative. Hamas is claiming numbers twice this.
I quoted your final sentence as my conclusion because I think that it is a great conclusion, and I am in complete agreement.
Hi Jeff,
Many thanks for your clarification. I was not exactly sure where you were coming from in a couple of places but should have clarified that with a few questions before proceeding so hastily.
Christ and the apostles never discussed politics – and there was a lot they could have said about the Roman Empire, Herod and Pilate. But their focus was elsewhere. I have often thought I get too worked up about earthly things and need to be more spiritually minded.
As to our seeing the Gaza situation very differently, “We see through a glass darkly,” as Paul said. We as humans are often wrong. naturally, I believe it is right to say that Israel has a right to exist and to defend itself, but that does not mean I am obligated to agree with every Israeli act and policy at all times. Even in the Old Testament period when God was working directly with Israel in a much more visible way, there were wicked kings and moral problems. Isaiah chapter 1 speaks a lot about the sinfulness of Israel.
About your comments causing disruption, there is no need for concern about that. In fact, I was too argumentative in a couple of places - a good lesson for me! That is a recurring problem with social media, it is too easy to dash something off.
About the healing salvation and redemption of Christ, neither the Israelis not the Arabs (with few exceptions) are following the teachings of Christ. If they were, there would be no conflict to begin with. That is nothing against Arabs or Israelis, the same could be said of the entire world. So many are looking for ways to achieve world peace without knowing that the best peace plan is in the Sermon on the Mount.
About your having hope in spite of the fact that America is not a Christian nation, I confess I should be more hopeful than I am.
You said “I quote you in saying that American deserves no better than God's indifference (and I say this in agreement with you that it is not a Christian nation; I had the word "purported" in my comment but edited out) . But to me, as a Christian, there is hope: that her people can be saved through the things that you identify in your last paragraph: "the additional struggles, self-sacrifice, repentance, humility, faith, denial of self, obedience to God and long and difficult inward transformations" (that I see arising from "Our" attacks on Gaza, Yemen, Lebanon, and Iran, as the US gets walloped in a variety of ways)."
About God’s indifference to America, I meant in that particular situation of 9-11, in not intervening to prevent it. I wouldn’t want to say that God was entirely indifferent to all that we say and do, which would be a very unbiblical thing of me to say. There is a passage where God says that people will cry out to him and he will not listen (Micah 3:4).
I believe that Romans 13 gives governments the right and the duty to defend their citizens by war if necessary, but many of America’s wars have not been about defending America at all. Think of all we could have done with the trillions squandered in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan and who knows where else.
And I think America is already suffering in many ways because of sinfulness both on the national and the personal level. Personally, I expect these negative trends to continue, but then I don’t claim to know the future.
It would be good if as you say Americans would turn back to God and repent. There should be more emphasis in that area. Conviction for sin is also part of the Christian message, without which Christ’s forgiveness means nothing.
Thanks also for your comments and your eirenic spirit. Once again, I should have made some inquiries first to find out more about where you were coming from.
About the statistics, I have never seen anyone claim 50,000 casualties, but confess I have not researched it. It is possible that the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs is itself less than objective. There has long been strong anti-Israel sentiment in the UN (look at the developments with UNRWA for example). But not knowing myself, it would have been better for me to raise questions more tentatively.
I am glad to have your agreement with my last paragraph. It is part of the answer to the complex problem of evil. We can look at that problem in an entirely different light if we understand that the purpose of life is not for us to life lives of perfect ease, pleasure and prosperity.