"There is conflict with the self – for we read in Romans,
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth (dwells) no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."
The Apostle Paul is referencing what the Law did and did not do. here This is not to be taken as the normal spiritual human struggle with self of St. Paul because he says quite the contrary throughout the rest of his letter to the Romans.
I understand that is a common view, and there is some legitimate difference of understanding as to how much of what Paul says in chapter 7 applies to a mature Christian. As you said, there is a strong note of victory in much of the rest of the letter, as "We are more than conquerors," "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ," and "The law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death."
Also, while the Scripture does not say, most would agree that Paul in chapter 7 was not struggling with robbing banks, getting drunk, and committing other blatant acts of sin. He was walking uprightly before God . . . yet even mature and victorious Christians such as we see in the rest of Romans can still fall short at times, especially in their inner spiritual lives, and experience the law of sin working in their members even as they are confident of God's acceptance and of final victory.
For example, In Romans after chapter 7, we see groaning within ourselves, groanings which cannot be uttered (8: 23, 26). There are also exhortations, which would not be necessary if people were constantly and always victorious (12:2, and 13:13, 14).
In I Corinthians chapter 1, Paul affirms the church there very strongly as being in Christ, yet he then proceeds to point out their many faults, so even in their salvation they had struggles with imperfections and falling short. Also James chapter 4 speaks very clearly to troubled and stumbling Christians.
But I could have stressed the victorious element more, and am still learning about these things myself.
> When it comes to the words of Jesus Christ mentioned above, I recently saw them referred to in an atheist critique of Christianity. “What kind of a teaching is this?”
Ironic considering most internet atheists already hate their parents.
It seems that atheists often having had poor or no relationships with their fathers, and their hostility to God was a reaction to this, is a fairly common topic, with a Google search bringing up various articles.
Of course, people can have bad fathers and convert to religion of some kind, and people can have good fathers and reject religion, but I think there is a strong connection if not an iron law about rejecting God because of rejecting their earthly fathers.
I am convinced though that people do not choose atheism because of reason, science, logic and evidence. They choose it because of hostility to God which could have something to do with fathers, and then they look for arguments afterwards.
"There is conflict with the self – for we read in Romans,
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth (dwells) no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."
The Apostle Paul is referencing what the Law did and did not do. here This is not to be taken as the normal spiritual human struggle with self of St. Paul because he says quite the contrary throughout the rest of his letter to the Romans.
I understand that is a common view, and there is some legitimate difference of understanding as to how much of what Paul says in chapter 7 applies to a mature Christian. As you said, there is a strong note of victory in much of the rest of the letter, as "We are more than conquerors," "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ," and "The law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death."
Also, while the Scripture does not say, most would agree that Paul in chapter 7 was not struggling with robbing banks, getting drunk, and committing other blatant acts of sin. He was walking uprightly before God . . . yet even mature and victorious Christians such as we see in the rest of Romans can still fall short at times, especially in their inner spiritual lives, and experience the law of sin working in their members even as they are confident of God's acceptance and of final victory.
For example, In Romans after chapter 7, we see groaning within ourselves, groanings which cannot be uttered (8: 23, 26). There are also exhortations, which would not be necessary if people were constantly and always victorious (12:2, and 13:13, 14).
In I Corinthians chapter 1, Paul affirms the church there very strongly as being in Christ, yet he then proceeds to point out their many faults, so even in their salvation they had struggles with imperfections and falling short. Also James chapter 4 speaks very clearly to troubled and stumbling Christians.
But I could have stressed the victorious element more, and am still learning about these things myself.
> When it comes to the words of Jesus Christ mentioned above, I recently saw them referred to in an atheist critique of Christianity. “What kind of a teaching is this?”
Ironic considering most internet atheists already hate their parents.
It seems that atheists often having had poor or no relationships with their fathers, and their hostility to God was a reaction to this, is a fairly common topic, with a Google search bringing up various articles.
Of course, people can have bad fathers and convert to religion of some kind, and people can have good fathers and reject religion, but I think there is a strong connection if not an iron law about rejecting God because of rejecting their earthly fathers.
I am convinced though that people do not choose atheism because of reason, science, logic and evidence. They choose it because of hostility to God which could have something to do with fathers, and then they look for arguments afterwards.