Thank you, Joe, for writing such a thorough a well researched history.
While the "Palestinians" are famously violent, ignorant, and taught little in school, the 'religious dimensions' of the Arab-Israeli conflict' were not covered so well.
While I doubt that many Muslims are aware of the initial conflict between the tribes of Sarah and Hagar, the Holy Land was promised by God to the firstborn son of Abraham. It is a shame YHWH did not specify that the line of ascendence was to be made of the descendants of Abraham's wife or his concubine.
No doubt, there is condemnation of the Jews for having the gall to believe they are the Chosen. This is reflected in Jesus' alleged words in John 14:6. Imagine! A Jewish rabbi that would condemn all of his fellow Jews to an eternity of torture because they couldn't throw off their history and culture. I know this is far from the essay's subject; but I find it impossible to believe the loving man who gave the Sermon on the Mount would despise his fellow tribesmen and that Saul would create yet another religion based on his arch-enemy.
You’re right, the religious dimensions are not covered well – in fact, they are usually just ignored. Many people are basically secular themselves, and don’t see the reality or significance of religious factors. Others who are religious feel that matters of public policy have to be discussed in a detached, secular way or they will not be taken seriously.
Anyway, I am glad you got something out of it. I got something out of working on it myself. I didn’t do a lot of research, except to verify a few details. I have been interested in Israel and the Middle East for a long time, and have read books about it but not in a scholarly way.
I believe what we see in Israel now is described in Ezekiel’s vision of the dry bones. In the vision the bones are assembled, and clothed with sinews, flesh and skin but still lack life. And then the breath of life is breathed into them and they rise an exceeding great army. And we read in Ezekiel 37:11 that “these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.”
So, the assembling of the dry bones is the regathering of the scattered Jewish people to their biblical homeland (about which regathering there are many other prophecies). But, the spirit of life has not yet been breathed into them (or maybe that process is now beginning).
But maybe you have a different understanding.
When it comes to Abraham, Sarah and Hagar, it is a basic Islamic teaching that the Old and New Testaments have been falsified by the Jews and Christians. So, if the book of Genesis had specified that the descent was through Sarah, that would be dismissed as a falsification, just as current appeals to references concerning the inheritance going to Isaac are dismissed.
There is some ambiguity on that in the Koran. On the one hand, Jews and Christians are called people of the book, because they had had some revelation from Moses and from Christ, accepted as prophets in Islam. So, they are given some preference over people of other religions. But, when it comes to disagreements with the Koran, the Christian and Jewish books are dismissed as corrupted. Maybe you know that already and I am just stating the obvious.
When you say “No doubt, there is condemnation of the Jews for having the gall to believe they are the Chosen,” I suppose you mean Muslim condemnation (Misguided Christian hostility to Judaism is a different story). Apparently Mohammed had initial hopes that the Jews would accept him, and some positive statements about Jews as people of the book may stem from that period. But when the Jews rejected his message and even ridiculed it for its distortions of the Bible, Mohammed got angry, so some parts of the Koran are more hostile to Jews than others (the chapters are not arranged in chronological order).
The gall of claiming to be chosen offends the secular world also, as does the mere idea of a moral, lawgiving God whom we have to obey.
I am not completely clear about your last paragraph. You quote John 14:6 where Christ says “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me” and say: “I find it impossible to believe the loving man who gave the Sermon on the Mount would despise his fellow tribesmen and that Saul would create yet another religion based on his arch-enemy.”
Do you mean to say that there is still a way for Jews to find forgiveness from sins and acceptance by God without Christ? There are some Christians who believe that the Jews have their own covenant and hence do not need the Christian message.
About not believing that Saul would create another religion based on his arch enemy, do you mean, that since he was persecuting Christians, Christ was his arch enemy, and you don’t see how Saul/Paul could create a new religion on that basis? But what do you make of the writings of Paul in the New Testament?
Arabs (and other non Jews e.g Armenians for example) deserve better, and much more for the Israelis, a better government, yet I can't and won't endorse anyone who wish for israeli state be dissolved (by force especially).
If Israel were to be dissolved, what would the replacement Palestinian state be? A garden of democracy such as is found nowhere in the Arab world? It would either be a corrupt and incompetent kleptocracy, such as we see in the PLA, or it would be a vicious totalitarian tyranny of the most brutal sort, such as we see in Hamas. This is not about freedom and a better life for the Palestinians, it is about destroying Israel and killing Jews.
There are moderate Palestinians who would be willing to accept the fact of Israelis existence, but they will be killed as traitors if they make too much noise.
There is nothing so stimulating as stimulation. It is a joy to wake up to your email. I've got my Espresso next to me and The Band's brown album is playing. I suspect Dog Heaven (my end-goal) will be much like this.
Your recollection of the "dead bones" gave me the shivers. What an amazing occult thought. Just as we've all heard of the 'diaspora'. Your comment drove me to ask Microsoft's Copilot to ask for a definition of that word. Well, I've always assumed it meant something about how the Jews were kicked out of their home by the Romans and ended up traveling the world to survive.
Lo and behold, I read that the specific Jewish dispersal we've all read about concerns their exile in Babylon.
But, given that the modern Jews have drifted around the planet, married the natives, had children, assimilated to some point, etc.; who is to say that a fair percentage of Earthlings are Jewish - even if they hate Jews and would deny their kinship under threat of torture?
As the Chinese say, "We live in interesting times".
I suspect that the USA has become a ravenous Satanic force in the world, that NATO and the UN obey its commands, and our nation is leading the world into a 3rd World War in order to establish the One World Government.
What do I think about Paul? What's in a name? I believe Paul was a very intelligent Pharisee and Roman citizen who, like so many today, chose to re-imagine himself. [not as Saul - the Christian-hating Roman that ordered Stephen to be thrown to his death from the roof of the temple. Any of Eisenman's books about Jesus' brother James documents this] I do not think that the "Damascus Road Experience" ever occurred and I believe that Saul saw an opportunity to pervert the teachings of Jesus and to create a new religion. On one hand, it was genius. It was a way to escape the ancient sacrificial murders of innocent animals and a miraculous way to absolve yourself of all your sins. Just accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior. It is an unexpected result of Saul's apostasy (the Bible has many instances of his disagreements with Peter - and shouldn't Jesus' brother logically lead any religion honoring his half-brother?)
Life is good, isn't it? It's 59 degrees here in the mountains and it feels like 70. I'm going out back with my dogs to enjoy it.
Keep in touch and keep your faith.
I must admit that I often think of YHWH as "the God that it totally disinterested" as Vonnegut famously wrote in one of his books and words attributed to him by those who wrote the book of John strike me as blatant lies and blasphemy. IMHO, God is an unstoppable force that is currently creating everything and will continue to always be creating.
I have been involved in some long discussions, more than I intended. Time flies. But I had your comments in my ToDo file, so better late than never I hope.
I do find some Substack conversations stimulating and worthwhile. Not having heard of the Band’s brown album I looked it up. Several of the songs were familiar. I looked up Dog heaven as well, had never heard of that. Years ago I knew all the groups but don’t follow pop music anymore.
The vision of the dead bones, or dry bones is in Ezekiel. It is a striking prophetic image which many apply to contemporary Israel.
About the biblical Jewish dispersal having only to do with the exile to Babylon (which began with Babylon but continued under the Persians when the Persians conquered Babylon), prophecy has multiple levels. That is, predictions about God expelling the Jews from the land and sending them into exile can apply equally to the Assyrian, Babylonian and Roman exiles. And, the vision of Ezekiel is commonly applied to the modern ingathering of the Jews, and not simply to their return from Persian exile.
In Deuteronomy Moses prophesied Jewish expulsion as a result of sin and disobedience. There is no reason God could discipline the Jews in this way once only. There have been three major expulsions (by Assyria, Babylon and Rome), and what we are witnessing now is the second return (which I expect will continue as more and more Jews will leave the West and go to Israel). The exiles in the Syrian destruction of the northern kingdom of Israel did not return.
About the Jews intermarrying with Gentiles in the Diaspora, that has obviously happened and no doubt there are people now who have Jewish blood and don’t even know it. But, contemporary anti-Judaism is not blood based, as it was under Hitler. So, even if someone is 100% Jewish, if they denounce Zionism and declare their support for the Palestinians, they will be accepted.
Then there is the Chinese proverb – yes, these are interesting times. People are already starting to think it is better to live in a world and a society where the routine continues and not much happens. Not very exciting, but who needs this kind of excitement?
About the US being a Satanic force, we read in I John that the entire world lies in wickedness. Satan has a great deal of rule and authority in the world. I wonder though if the US top leadership is more in alliance with the globalists and the UN, and working in cooperation with them to establish a one world government, which might be based in Europe. After all, if it were based in the US then that would be American domination! But the trends toward a One World Government are strong.
About Paul, as I said I was not sure what you meant about him. So thanks for clearing that up. I had not heard of Eisenman so I found his book on Amazon and read part of it. He does not accept the historicity of the New Testament, while I do, so of course that leads to very different interpretations. Thus, I believe that Paul’s Damascus Road Experience did occur as he described it, that he really had an encounter with the risen Christ, and that his life and teachings were a faithful witness to Christ (Paul’s letters having been written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and hence faithful filling out of the implications of the Christ’s teachings.
Of course, that the New Testament is historically accurate is not something I could prove in a court of law. How do we know what happened on the road to Damascus. This is a matter of faith, not of scientific evidence, or even of abstract logic (it is not against logic, but beyond it, pure logic being in fact very limited in its scope).
Thus, I don’t see Paul as having reimagined himself, but rather as having been changed by his encounter with Christ. And, he did not create a new religion, since his emphasis was on the deity of Christ, the resurrection from the dead and a day of judgment, with all being guilty of sin and forgiveness being available only through Christ’s sacrifice. True he set aside some Jewish laws, but Crist did that also (Christ nullified the dietary laws when he said we are defiled by what comes out of our hearts, not by what we eat, and he nullified the criminal laws when he said that those without sin should throw the first stone at the woman who deserved death under the Mosaic law). So when Paul (and Peter and the rest of the apostles) set aside the sacrificial laws, that was a continuation of the same trend. And God’s destruction of the temple in 70 AD has been taken to mean that God himself put an end to the whole Jewish sacrificial system so even the Jews had to abandon it.
And forgiveness of sins is not just a Pauline invention. The 4 gospels state that Christ had the power to forgive sins, and he forgave sins on various occasions. This is why John the Baptist said “Behold the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world.” And there are Old Testament references to cleansing and forgiveness of sin “Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow” (Isaiah chapt. 1).
Thus, what some consider Paul’s genius was actually the wisdom of God, of which Paul was just an honest representative. But the idea that “All you have to do is accept Christ as your personal saviour” is very much a modern simplification of Paul’s message and of the whole biblical message. It is part of our modern society to make things easier and simpler, and much of the modern American church is built on that.
Actually, the full biblical message as seen in the gospels and in Peter, John, James and Paul is that we are saved only by the grace of God through faith in Christ (Ephesians 2:8 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves”), but if we have faith, then we want to follow Christ and live for Christ and have the mind and Spirit of Christ. This has much to do with how we live, and people who think they just agree to some doctrines and are going to heaven are ignoring many plain teachings – “For strait is the gate and narrow is the way that leads to life and few there be that find it,” and “Whoever does not take up his cross and deny himself and follow me cannot be my disciple.”
This is one of the many reasons for the weakness of the modern American church – it has simplified the message of Christ to the point where it is no longer the message of Christ. I have never joined any church, and have stayed away from church for long periods of time, especially while overseas. Actually, I think I have benefitted from that, as many churches are really only social clubs.
About Paul’s disagreement with Peter, the Bible shows only one instance, where Peter started eating with non-Jews, but then changed his practice because he was afraid of being condemned for violating Jewish law. To say that it was not lawful to eat with non-Jews denied Peter’s own experience of the Holy Spirit coming upon the Roman Centurion after Peter had preached to his house.
About Jesus logically honoring any religion honoring his half brother, not, that is not necessary. Are you referring to the teaching in the book of James (traditionally said to have been written by Christ’s half brother) that we are justified by works, and not by faith alone? This has been reconciled with salvation apart from works by saying, “We are saved by faith, without works, but if our faith and salvation are genuine then there will be works, and without such works faith is dead and hence not real faith.”
Yes, you are right, life is good. People talk about all of the evil in the world as an argument against God’s existence, but the fact that we don’t all go out and kill ourselves shows that we want to live and the goods of life far outweigh the evil. So we can still believe and be thankful in spite of the fact that the world is dark and sinful in many ways.
Changing the subject, I am thinking about getting a retirement visa in the Philippines and moving there (I worked as an English teacher for years overseas and like living abroad). The application procedure is surprisingly simple.
Here in the Midwest it is spring at last – its great to see the four seasons again after 18 years in the Middle East.
About keeping my faith, that is in God’s hands – but as the years go by I see more and more evidences of the truth of God in Christ and am not in any danger of abandoning what has proven true so many ways in my own life.
About keeping in touch, I am glad to have some serious conversations even if it is only electronically.
You may think of God as totally disinterested, but that is not what Christ teaches, and is contradicted throughout the course of the entire Old and New Testaments. I have found God is very far from being disinterested, and that he knows me personally and is involved in my life to a degree that seems incredible, given that he is the master of the universe, but many other Christians have had similar experiences. Take for example the 23rd Psalm. That is not about a disinterested God.
I am curious as to which parts of the book of John you think are lies and blasphemy. I have read that book many times and never had any such idea. And, if you want to say something is lies, what is the standard of truth that you use to make that determination? We as human beings are not wise enough to go by our own thoughts and feelings, which is why we need divine revelation, an authoritative and inspired Bible.
Do you come out of any particular religious background?
About God being an unstoppable force that is always creating, does that have anything to do with Schopenhauer? He is currently maintaining his creation, since it is sustained by him, but at some point this creation will come to an end. And there was a point before God created the world.
Thank you. That was very interesting. It would take me an hour to respond to every point and here I go again.
You've no doubt heard of the "Thomas Jefferson Bible": that's the one where our President cut-and-pasted every word from each of the four gospels that agreed with each of the other three (and excluded miracles and magic). It's my favorite. It shows Jesus as my Savior and a part of that mysterious "godhead" that no human can comprehend.
The story of Noah may have been added as a joke. Every world religion talks about a Great Flood. Every geologist knows it happened centuries before Noah existed.
The book of John used to be my favorite NT book: it seemed the most spiritual. And then I read John 14 and realized that it was written 300 years after Christ died and there is no way the Son of God would condemn all of his fellow Jews for eternal torture if they didn't accept Him.
I am guessing (with no evidence to support me) that Jesus became an Essene and a disciple of John the Baptist.
And then 2,000 years passed.
FYI. As of 1706, most of the oldest men in my family were Mennonite ministers. The first "Klement" to step on American soil was Jakob. On my mother's side of the family, they are all Free Methodists. In fact, my great-grandfather Judson Hudnut was a Free Methodist circuit rider from Sparta to Sault Ste. Marie, MI.
I've been considering reading more about Schopenhauer for the past ten years, but haven't gotten around to it.
Your last sentence confused me. Did you say Schopenhauer believes there was a point before God created the world? I do, too. I don't believe there was ever a time when God did not exist.
I have heard of the Jefferson Bible, and even handled a copy in a bookstore once. I don’t share your high opinion of it. He also removed passages on judgment and eternal punishment (if I am not mistaken). To me the four gospels are divinely inspired narratives, written by men, but by men guided by the Spirit of God to give a true and completely accurate report of all that transpired. Without such a book, we don’t really know who Christ was or what he taught. He becomes merely a legendary figure about whom nothing certain is known.
And how can it show Jesus as your savior? What if he really said and did those things that Jefferson removed? If he did no miracles and was not born of a virgin, he was just an ordinary human. And what if he didn’t rise from the dead either? How can a dead man be of any use to you?
If you are inclined to get into that, exactly who or what do you think Christ was and in what sense is he your savior? This is an important subject and I think time discussing it is well spent. It is not like we were quarrelling over Trump or something.
About the story of the flood, I don’t see it as a joke at all. For one thing, “Every geologist knows” is hardly a convincing argument. God’s infinite power is above and beyond the reach of scientific criticism, and the circumstances of the world’s creation are completely outside the range of known materialist causality.
In 1929 Leonard Woolley discovered evidence of a massive flood that occurred around 3,000 BC. As to geological arguments against such an event, I am not familiar with them and not particularly interested, though if you want to give me some I will consider them.
About condemning his fellow Jews to torture if they did not believe in him, Christ taught that the way to eternal life in heaven is narrow and few find it, while the way to eternal punishment in hell is broad and easy and many go in by it.
" Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth (leads) to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth (leads) unto life, and few there be that find it."
Jefferson almost certainly removed it – a bad mistake on his part.
People – Jews or whoever – will not go to hell for rejecting Christ. They will go to hell for their own sins, of which the Bible says we are all guilty. There is none righteous, no not one. If for example I have a fatal disease, and the doctor offers me a certain cure, and I refuse to take it, I die because of the disease. Sine Christ paid for our sin there is no other way to heaven than through him. Thus, the fact that Christ said people could not be saved without faith in him, that is no proof at all that the book was written 300 years later. That was not a later invention of the church designed to demonize Jews, it is the true teaching of Christ.
There is no need to guess what Christ might have been, we have a full and accurate, divinely inspired account in the four Gospels. And two thousand years have past? “A thousand ages in God’s sight is like an evening gone.” We are still the same humans as they were 2000 years ago. Human nature has not changed and we need the same solution for the same sin problems as they did then.
About family history, my own dad was a Methodist minister, but I don’t consider myself a Methodist.
About Schopenhauer, you had written “God is an unstoppable force that is currently creating everything and will continue to always be creating.” This reminded me of Schopenhauer, but I only asked, he does not have a monopoly on that idea. But your idea of God here seems rather philosophical and impersonal. I suppose you do not see Christ as the human manifestation of God in the full biblical sense of him being God in the Flesh, and “in him [Christ] dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily” (Colossians 2:9).
I do not question your sincerity or your faith, Joe. I suspect that you will be one of those able to retain it during the final war between good and evil. Blind and mindless faith is better than none at all. In my 75 years, I have studied much and I seem to recall that Jesus called his contemporaries "vipers" because of their stiff-necked stubbornness and hypocricy.
You claim to dislike THE LIFE AND MORALS OF JESUS OF NAZARETH because it leaves out magick. Maybe you NEED to have a God that works impossible tricks. I don't. His words show his godliness.. There is no need for him to mimic every pagan god invented since Sumer.
(what follows are your words and my response)
About condemning his fellow Jews to torture if they did not believe in him, Christ taught that the way to eternal life in heaven is narrow and few find it, while the way to eternal punishment in hell is broad and easy and many go in by it. " Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth (leads) to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth (leads) unto life, and few there be that find it." ..... People – Jews or whoever – will not go to hell for rejecting Christ. They will go to hell for their own sins, of which the Bible says we are all guilty.)
To quote whichever follower of Christ wrote the Gospel of John hundreds of years after the death and alleged resurrection: [John 14:6] “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." I'm sorry, Joe; but I don't believe my LORD and Savior is such a narcissistic egomaniac. In those two sentences, every human that does not accept Jesus as his personal savior is condemned because of his disbelief in the son of Mary.
As you well know, Joe, there are many different beliefs held by sincere Christians regarding the afterlife and something called Hell. You are welcome to believe anything.
I simply choose to believe in the Natural Laws that my omniscient and all-powerful god put in place.
The idea that the Grand Canyon was carved by the Colorado River in less than 3,000 years is ludicrous.
You are probably aware of the centuries' old debate between Christians who believed in the virgin birth and those who believe (as I do) that Jesus' divinity was established when he was baptized. The final decision by the church was a political one - as all religious decisions are.
Nice talking with you, Joe. Praise Jesus (and his friends).
But, then, there's that sticky bit in Genesis where god says, "Let us make man in our image". Who was he talking to? But it's time for supper now.
That is the spiritual dimension behind the unusual hostility to Jews and to Israel. This is not only politics and international relations, this involves "spiritual wickedness in high places."
Thank you, Joe, for writing such a thorough a well researched history.
While the "Palestinians" are famously violent, ignorant, and taught little in school, the 'religious dimensions' of the Arab-Israeli conflict' were not covered so well.
While I doubt that many Muslims are aware of the initial conflict between the tribes of Sarah and Hagar, the Holy Land was promised by God to the firstborn son of Abraham. It is a shame YHWH did not specify that the line of ascendence was to be made of the descendants of Abraham's wife or his concubine.
No doubt, there is condemnation of the Jews for having the gall to believe they are the Chosen. This is reflected in Jesus' alleged words in John 14:6. Imagine! A Jewish rabbi that would condemn all of his fellow Jews to an eternity of torture because they couldn't throw off their history and culture. I know this is far from the essay's subject; but I find it impossible to believe the loving man who gave the Sermon on the Mount would despise his fellow tribesmen and that Saul would create yet another religion based on his arch-enemy.
You’re right, the religious dimensions are not covered well – in fact, they are usually just ignored. Many people are basically secular themselves, and don’t see the reality or significance of religious factors. Others who are religious feel that matters of public policy have to be discussed in a detached, secular way or they will not be taken seriously.
Anyway, I am glad you got something out of it. I got something out of working on it myself. I didn’t do a lot of research, except to verify a few details. I have been interested in Israel and the Middle East for a long time, and have read books about it but not in a scholarly way.
I believe what we see in Israel now is described in Ezekiel’s vision of the dry bones. In the vision the bones are assembled, and clothed with sinews, flesh and skin but still lack life. And then the breath of life is breathed into them and they rise an exceeding great army. And we read in Ezekiel 37:11 that “these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.”
So, the assembling of the dry bones is the regathering of the scattered Jewish people to their biblical homeland (about which regathering there are many other prophecies). But, the spirit of life has not yet been breathed into them (or maybe that process is now beginning).
But maybe you have a different understanding.
When it comes to Abraham, Sarah and Hagar, it is a basic Islamic teaching that the Old and New Testaments have been falsified by the Jews and Christians. So, if the book of Genesis had specified that the descent was through Sarah, that would be dismissed as a falsification, just as current appeals to references concerning the inheritance going to Isaac are dismissed.
There is some ambiguity on that in the Koran. On the one hand, Jews and Christians are called people of the book, because they had had some revelation from Moses and from Christ, accepted as prophets in Islam. So, they are given some preference over people of other religions. But, when it comes to disagreements with the Koran, the Christian and Jewish books are dismissed as corrupted. Maybe you know that already and I am just stating the obvious.
When you say “No doubt, there is condemnation of the Jews for having the gall to believe they are the Chosen,” I suppose you mean Muslim condemnation (Misguided Christian hostility to Judaism is a different story). Apparently Mohammed had initial hopes that the Jews would accept him, and some positive statements about Jews as people of the book may stem from that period. But when the Jews rejected his message and even ridiculed it for its distortions of the Bible, Mohammed got angry, so some parts of the Koran are more hostile to Jews than others (the chapters are not arranged in chronological order).
The gall of claiming to be chosen offends the secular world also, as does the mere idea of a moral, lawgiving God whom we have to obey.
I am not completely clear about your last paragraph. You quote John 14:6 where Christ says “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me” and say: “I find it impossible to believe the loving man who gave the Sermon on the Mount would despise his fellow tribesmen and that Saul would create yet another religion based on his arch-enemy.”
Do you mean to say that there is still a way for Jews to find forgiveness from sins and acceptance by God without Christ? There are some Christians who believe that the Jews have their own covenant and hence do not need the Christian message.
About not believing that Saul would create another religion based on his arch enemy, do you mean, that since he was persecuting Christians, Christ was his arch enemy, and you don’t see how Saul/Paul could create a new religion on that basis? But what do you make of the writings of Paul in the New Testament?
Arabs (and other non Jews e.g Armenians for example) deserve better, and much more for the Israelis, a better government, yet I can't and won't endorse anyone who wish for israeli state be dissolved (by force especially).
If Israel were to be dissolved, what would the replacement Palestinian state be? A garden of democracy such as is found nowhere in the Arab world? It would either be a corrupt and incompetent kleptocracy, such as we see in the PLA, or it would be a vicious totalitarian tyranny of the most brutal sort, such as we see in Hamas. This is not about freedom and a better life for the Palestinians, it is about destroying Israel and killing Jews.
There are moderate Palestinians who would be willing to accept the fact of Israelis existence, but they will be killed as traitors if they make too much noise.
I have to agree.
By the way..
the PLA, you mean the Palestinian Authority or Palestinian Legislative Assembly? Or PLO?
I should have said PA for Palestinian Authority, maybe I remembered the PLA from somewhere (there was a Palestine Liberation Army).
Good to know! Honestly, as an Asian, the PLA that I know is the military of the PRC (People's Liberation Army)
There is nothing so stimulating as stimulation. It is a joy to wake up to your email. I've got my Espresso next to me and The Band's brown album is playing. I suspect Dog Heaven (my end-goal) will be much like this.
Your recollection of the "dead bones" gave me the shivers. What an amazing occult thought. Just as we've all heard of the 'diaspora'. Your comment drove me to ask Microsoft's Copilot to ask for a definition of that word. Well, I've always assumed it meant something about how the Jews were kicked out of their home by the Romans and ended up traveling the world to survive.
Lo and behold, I read that the specific Jewish dispersal we've all read about concerns their exile in Babylon.
But, given that the modern Jews have drifted around the planet, married the natives, had children, assimilated to some point, etc.; who is to say that a fair percentage of Earthlings are Jewish - even if they hate Jews and would deny their kinship under threat of torture?
As the Chinese say, "We live in interesting times".
I suspect that the USA has become a ravenous Satanic force in the world, that NATO and the UN obey its commands, and our nation is leading the world into a 3rd World War in order to establish the One World Government.
What do I think about Paul? What's in a name? I believe Paul was a very intelligent Pharisee and Roman citizen who, like so many today, chose to re-imagine himself. [not as Saul - the Christian-hating Roman that ordered Stephen to be thrown to his death from the roof of the temple. Any of Eisenman's books about Jesus' brother James documents this] I do not think that the "Damascus Road Experience" ever occurred and I believe that Saul saw an opportunity to pervert the teachings of Jesus and to create a new religion. On one hand, it was genius. It was a way to escape the ancient sacrificial murders of innocent animals and a miraculous way to absolve yourself of all your sins. Just accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior. It is an unexpected result of Saul's apostasy (the Bible has many instances of his disagreements with Peter - and shouldn't Jesus' brother logically lead any religion honoring his half-brother?)
Life is good, isn't it? It's 59 degrees here in the mountains and it feels like 70. I'm going out back with my dogs to enjoy it.
Keep in touch and keep your faith.
I must admit that I often think of YHWH as "the God that it totally disinterested" as Vonnegut famously wrote in one of his books and words attributed to him by those who wrote the book of John strike me as blatant lies and blasphemy. IMHO, God is an unstoppable force that is currently creating everything and will continue to always be creating.
See ya.
C2
I have been involved in some long discussions, more than I intended. Time flies. But I had your comments in my ToDo file, so better late than never I hope.
I do find some Substack conversations stimulating and worthwhile. Not having heard of the Band’s brown album I looked it up. Several of the songs were familiar. I looked up Dog heaven as well, had never heard of that. Years ago I knew all the groups but don’t follow pop music anymore.
The vision of the dead bones, or dry bones is in Ezekiel. It is a striking prophetic image which many apply to contemporary Israel.
About the biblical Jewish dispersal having only to do with the exile to Babylon (which began with Babylon but continued under the Persians when the Persians conquered Babylon), prophecy has multiple levels. That is, predictions about God expelling the Jews from the land and sending them into exile can apply equally to the Assyrian, Babylonian and Roman exiles. And, the vision of Ezekiel is commonly applied to the modern ingathering of the Jews, and not simply to their return from Persian exile.
In Deuteronomy Moses prophesied Jewish expulsion as a result of sin and disobedience. There is no reason God could discipline the Jews in this way once only. There have been three major expulsions (by Assyria, Babylon and Rome), and what we are witnessing now is the second return (which I expect will continue as more and more Jews will leave the West and go to Israel). The exiles in the Syrian destruction of the northern kingdom of Israel did not return.
About the Jews intermarrying with Gentiles in the Diaspora, that has obviously happened and no doubt there are people now who have Jewish blood and don’t even know it. But, contemporary anti-Judaism is not blood based, as it was under Hitler. So, even if someone is 100% Jewish, if they denounce Zionism and declare their support for the Palestinians, they will be accepted.
Then there is the Chinese proverb – yes, these are interesting times. People are already starting to think it is better to live in a world and a society where the routine continues and not much happens. Not very exciting, but who needs this kind of excitement?
About the US being a Satanic force, we read in I John that the entire world lies in wickedness. Satan has a great deal of rule and authority in the world. I wonder though if the US top leadership is more in alliance with the globalists and the UN, and working in cooperation with them to establish a one world government, which might be based in Europe. After all, if it were based in the US then that would be American domination! But the trends toward a One World Government are strong.
About Paul, as I said I was not sure what you meant about him. So thanks for clearing that up. I had not heard of Eisenman so I found his book on Amazon and read part of it. He does not accept the historicity of the New Testament, while I do, so of course that leads to very different interpretations. Thus, I believe that Paul’s Damascus Road Experience did occur as he described it, that he really had an encounter with the risen Christ, and that his life and teachings were a faithful witness to Christ (Paul’s letters having been written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and hence faithful filling out of the implications of the Christ’s teachings.
Of course, that the New Testament is historically accurate is not something I could prove in a court of law. How do we know what happened on the road to Damascus. This is a matter of faith, not of scientific evidence, or even of abstract logic (it is not against logic, but beyond it, pure logic being in fact very limited in its scope).
Thus, I don’t see Paul as having reimagined himself, but rather as having been changed by his encounter with Christ. And, he did not create a new religion, since his emphasis was on the deity of Christ, the resurrection from the dead and a day of judgment, with all being guilty of sin and forgiveness being available only through Christ’s sacrifice. True he set aside some Jewish laws, but Crist did that also (Christ nullified the dietary laws when he said we are defiled by what comes out of our hearts, not by what we eat, and he nullified the criminal laws when he said that those without sin should throw the first stone at the woman who deserved death under the Mosaic law). So when Paul (and Peter and the rest of the apostles) set aside the sacrificial laws, that was a continuation of the same trend. And God’s destruction of the temple in 70 AD has been taken to mean that God himself put an end to the whole Jewish sacrificial system so even the Jews had to abandon it.
And forgiveness of sins is not just a Pauline invention. The 4 gospels state that Christ had the power to forgive sins, and he forgave sins on various occasions. This is why John the Baptist said “Behold the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world.” And there are Old Testament references to cleansing and forgiveness of sin “Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow” (Isaiah chapt. 1).
Thus, what some consider Paul’s genius was actually the wisdom of God, of which Paul was just an honest representative. But the idea that “All you have to do is accept Christ as your personal saviour” is very much a modern simplification of Paul’s message and of the whole biblical message. It is part of our modern society to make things easier and simpler, and much of the modern American church is built on that.
Actually, the full biblical message as seen in the gospels and in Peter, John, James and Paul is that we are saved only by the grace of God through faith in Christ (Ephesians 2:8 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves”), but if we have faith, then we want to follow Christ and live for Christ and have the mind and Spirit of Christ. This has much to do with how we live, and people who think they just agree to some doctrines and are going to heaven are ignoring many plain teachings – “For strait is the gate and narrow is the way that leads to life and few there be that find it,” and “Whoever does not take up his cross and deny himself and follow me cannot be my disciple.”
This is one of the many reasons for the weakness of the modern American church – it has simplified the message of Christ to the point where it is no longer the message of Christ. I have never joined any church, and have stayed away from church for long periods of time, especially while overseas. Actually, I think I have benefitted from that, as many churches are really only social clubs.
About Paul’s disagreement with Peter, the Bible shows only one instance, where Peter started eating with non-Jews, but then changed his practice because he was afraid of being condemned for violating Jewish law. To say that it was not lawful to eat with non-Jews denied Peter’s own experience of the Holy Spirit coming upon the Roman Centurion after Peter had preached to his house.
About Jesus logically honoring any religion honoring his half brother, not, that is not necessary. Are you referring to the teaching in the book of James (traditionally said to have been written by Christ’s half brother) that we are justified by works, and not by faith alone? This has been reconciled with salvation apart from works by saying, “We are saved by faith, without works, but if our faith and salvation are genuine then there will be works, and without such works faith is dead and hence not real faith.”
Yes, you are right, life is good. People talk about all of the evil in the world as an argument against God’s existence, but the fact that we don’t all go out and kill ourselves shows that we want to live and the goods of life far outweigh the evil. So we can still believe and be thankful in spite of the fact that the world is dark and sinful in many ways.
Changing the subject, I am thinking about getting a retirement visa in the Philippines and moving there (I worked as an English teacher for years overseas and like living abroad). The application procedure is surprisingly simple.
Here in the Midwest it is spring at last – its great to see the four seasons again after 18 years in the Middle East.
About keeping my faith, that is in God’s hands – but as the years go by I see more and more evidences of the truth of God in Christ and am not in any danger of abandoning what has proven true so many ways in my own life.
About keeping in touch, I am glad to have some serious conversations even if it is only electronically.
You may think of God as totally disinterested, but that is not what Christ teaches, and is contradicted throughout the course of the entire Old and New Testaments. I have found God is very far from being disinterested, and that he knows me personally and is involved in my life to a degree that seems incredible, given that he is the master of the universe, but many other Christians have had similar experiences. Take for example the 23rd Psalm. That is not about a disinterested God.
I am curious as to which parts of the book of John you think are lies and blasphemy. I have read that book many times and never had any such idea. And, if you want to say something is lies, what is the standard of truth that you use to make that determination? We as human beings are not wise enough to go by our own thoughts and feelings, which is why we need divine revelation, an authoritative and inspired Bible.
Do you come out of any particular religious background?
About God being an unstoppable force that is always creating, does that have anything to do with Schopenhauer? He is currently maintaining his creation, since it is sustained by him, but at some point this creation will come to an end. And there was a point before God created the world.
Thank you. That was very interesting. It would take me an hour to respond to every point and here I go again.
You've no doubt heard of the "Thomas Jefferson Bible": that's the one where our President cut-and-pasted every word from each of the four gospels that agreed with each of the other three (and excluded miracles and magic). It's my favorite. It shows Jesus as my Savior and a part of that mysterious "godhead" that no human can comprehend.
The story of Noah may have been added as a joke. Every world religion talks about a Great Flood. Every geologist knows it happened centuries before Noah existed.
The book of John used to be my favorite NT book: it seemed the most spiritual. And then I read John 14 and realized that it was written 300 years after Christ died and there is no way the Son of God would condemn all of his fellow Jews for eternal torture if they didn't accept Him.
I am guessing (with no evidence to support me) that Jesus became an Essene and a disciple of John the Baptist.
And then 2,000 years passed.
FYI. As of 1706, most of the oldest men in my family were Mennonite ministers. The first "Klement" to step on American soil was Jakob. On my mother's side of the family, they are all Free Methodists. In fact, my great-grandfather Judson Hudnut was a Free Methodist circuit rider from Sparta to Sault Ste. Marie, MI.
I've been considering reading more about Schopenhauer for the past ten years, but haven't gotten around to it.
Your last sentence confused me. Did you say Schopenhauer believes there was a point before God created the world? I do, too. I don't believe there was ever a time when God did not exist.
I have heard of the Jefferson Bible, and even handled a copy in a bookstore once. I don’t share your high opinion of it. He also removed passages on judgment and eternal punishment (if I am not mistaken). To me the four gospels are divinely inspired narratives, written by men, but by men guided by the Spirit of God to give a true and completely accurate report of all that transpired. Without such a book, we don’t really know who Christ was or what he taught. He becomes merely a legendary figure about whom nothing certain is known.
And how can it show Jesus as your savior? What if he really said and did those things that Jefferson removed? If he did no miracles and was not born of a virgin, he was just an ordinary human. And what if he didn’t rise from the dead either? How can a dead man be of any use to you?
If you are inclined to get into that, exactly who or what do you think Christ was and in what sense is he your savior? This is an important subject and I think time discussing it is well spent. It is not like we were quarrelling over Trump or something.
About the story of the flood, I don’t see it as a joke at all. For one thing, “Every geologist knows” is hardly a convincing argument. God’s infinite power is above and beyond the reach of scientific criticism, and the circumstances of the world’s creation are completely outside the range of known materialist causality.
In 1929 Leonard Woolley discovered evidence of a massive flood that occurred around 3,000 BC. As to geological arguments against such an event, I am not familiar with them and not particularly interested, though if you want to give me some I will consider them.
About condemning his fellow Jews to torture if they did not believe in him, Christ taught that the way to eternal life in heaven is narrow and few find it, while the way to eternal punishment in hell is broad and easy and many go in by it.
" Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth (leads) to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth (leads) unto life, and few there be that find it."
Jefferson almost certainly removed it – a bad mistake on his part.
People – Jews or whoever – will not go to hell for rejecting Christ. They will go to hell for their own sins, of which the Bible says we are all guilty. There is none righteous, no not one. If for example I have a fatal disease, and the doctor offers me a certain cure, and I refuse to take it, I die because of the disease. Sine Christ paid for our sin there is no other way to heaven than through him. Thus, the fact that Christ said people could not be saved without faith in him, that is no proof at all that the book was written 300 years later. That was not a later invention of the church designed to demonize Jews, it is the true teaching of Christ.
There is no need to guess what Christ might have been, we have a full and accurate, divinely inspired account in the four Gospels. And two thousand years have past? “A thousand ages in God’s sight is like an evening gone.” We are still the same humans as they were 2000 years ago. Human nature has not changed and we need the same solution for the same sin problems as they did then.
About family history, my own dad was a Methodist minister, but I don’t consider myself a Methodist.
About Schopenhauer, you had written “God is an unstoppable force that is currently creating everything and will continue to always be creating.” This reminded me of Schopenhauer, but I only asked, he does not have a monopoly on that idea. But your idea of God here seems rather philosophical and impersonal. I suppose you do not see Christ as the human manifestation of God in the full biblical sense of him being God in the Flesh, and “in him [Christ] dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily” (Colossians 2:9).
I do not question your sincerity or your faith, Joe. I suspect that you will be one of those able to retain it during the final war between good and evil. Blind and mindless faith is better than none at all. In my 75 years, I have studied much and I seem to recall that Jesus called his contemporaries "vipers" because of their stiff-necked stubbornness and hypocricy.
You claim to dislike THE LIFE AND MORALS OF JESUS OF NAZARETH because it leaves out magick. Maybe you NEED to have a God that works impossible tricks. I don't. His words show his godliness.. There is no need for him to mimic every pagan god invented since Sumer.
(what follows are your words and my response)
About condemning his fellow Jews to torture if they did not believe in him, Christ taught that the way to eternal life in heaven is narrow and few find it, while the way to eternal punishment in hell is broad and easy and many go in by it. " Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth (leads) to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth (leads) unto life, and few there be that find it." ..... People – Jews or whoever – will not go to hell for rejecting Christ. They will go to hell for their own sins, of which the Bible says we are all guilty.)
To quote whichever follower of Christ wrote the Gospel of John hundreds of years after the death and alleged resurrection: [John 14:6] “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." I'm sorry, Joe; but I don't believe my LORD and Savior is such a narcissistic egomaniac. In those two sentences, every human that does not accept Jesus as his personal savior is condemned because of his disbelief in the son of Mary.
As you well know, Joe, there are many different beliefs held by sincere Christians regarding the afterlife and something called Hell. You are welcome to believe anything.
I simply choose to believe in the Natural Laws that my omniscient and all-powerful god put in place.
The idea that the Grand Canyon was carved by the Colorado River in less than 3,000 years is ludicrous.
You are probably aware of the centuries' old debate between Christians who believed in the virgin birth and those who believe (as I do) that Jesus' divinity was established when he was baptized. The final decision by the church was a political one - as all religious decisions are.
Nice talking with you, Joe. Praise Jesus (and his friends).
But, then, there's that sticky bit in Genesis where god says, "Let us make man in our image". Who was he talking to? But it's time for supper now.
If one hates the Jews it is because they hate God...
That is the spiritual dimension behind the unusual hostility to Jews and to Israel. This is not only politics and international relations, this involves "spiritual wickedness in high places."
It seems that we are headed towards end times like a locomotive with no brakes careening down hill...
Yes, it does seem that way. What must it have been like for Christians in the Roman Empire as it was collapsing?
People say "God is in control," and that is true. However, God's control includes wrath, devastation and severe judgments.
What did Job say? The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away. Blessed be the name of the Lord."