Conversation with a secularist concerning some common criticisms of Christianity (including the issue of homosexuality)

“. . . that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean” Leviticus 10:10

Introduction

This is a response to a response to a response. That is, someone made some comments in the Substack notes, to which I responded. He responded to that, and this is my answer.

I see no need to summarize or review the whole process. That would be tedious to me to write, and tedious for anyone else to read. So, although I give the link here for reference, I have carefully written this answer to be self-contained and self-explanatory, and have made an effort to be fair.

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I looked at many titles on Alex’s Substack page and saw nothing specifically about religion https://substack.com/@alexilex1. Perhaps, if he feels so inclined, Alex will share more of his views in that area. But if not, then not. But that, to me, is the first and most fundamental question: Does God exist, or not?

“If there is no God” – and I say that in the same sense that Paul said “If there is no resurrection from the dead,” or Christ said at his trial, “If I have spoken evil bear witness of the evil.” This is not an “if” of doubtfulness, but of examining alternatives.

Anyway, if there is no God, and the universe just came about by random and purposeless interactions of energy and matter; and if human beings came about as the result of an impersonal natural process that did not have us in mind, then there really is nothing wrong with homosexuality. “Whatever gets you through the night . . . ” There is no moral law inherent in the universe, in which case morality becomes nothing other than what society happens to decree. In the old days religious societies decreed one thing, now that we are generally as a culture emancipated from religion, we have decreed something different.

In contrast to this, I believe there is a God. I believe he designed us and created us, and he has laws for our proper behavior and for our real spiritual flourishing. They can to some extent be compared to traffic laws. These merely human laws are not designed to make us miserable. They are designed for our benefit, and help us to travel more safely.

In the same way, God’s moral laws as contained in the New Testament, and as contained in the Old Testament when read in light of the New, are for our benefit – but they are more than that. They are expressions of God’s character and of his will for us. Thus, they are infinitely more important than traffic laws, as they affect our entire quality of life on the deepest levels.

Also, God’s laws have eternal consequences. We do not just die and vanish. The immortal, immaterial human soul lives after death, and there will be a general resurrection of the dead, where we will all be held to account for the manner in which we have used the precious gift of life God has given us. Then, as Christ said,

. . . the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

God invented, designed and constructed the human body. He gave us eyes for seeing, hands for walking, and other parts of the body for other things. He also created the human reproductive system, and gave instructions for how it is to be used – within lawful marriage between a man and a woman.

There are some people – both hetero- and homosexual, theists and atheists, people of all different sorts – who feel that the human body is sort of a plaything, to be used at will for our pleasure and amusement. This is a bad mistake. But again, that depends on the question of whether or not God exists.

Some specific responses

AI (Alex Ilex): First of all, I disagree with your ‘moral objections’ to homosexuality but it's not a problem, we can always agree to disagree. Other your points are more problematic and as such deserve a more detailed response, however.

I think this is a proper tone for serious discussion. I am not offended, hurt, or threatened if someone says my religious views are wrong, or they don’t like conservative white males. Christ was physically struck in the face and responded calmly. Unfortunately, there are some people who seek to impose their values on others by force, and want to stifle any opposition. That is the way of the world, and not the way of Christ and of New Testament Christianity.

AI: First of all, would you suspect any pedo connotations when a straight dude says that ‘he loves girls’? Not really. Straight dudes constantly do that, using 'girls' interchangeably with ‘women’ here, and no one has any problem with that. But if a gay guy does the same with boys, it's already ‘pedophilia and grooming’. Hypocrisy and double standard rooted in homophobis detected.

Say whatever you like, there are very many people today who still consider heterosexuality as normal, and homosexuality as abnormal. This does not mean that they hate or fear or want to persecute anyone, but they just have the idea that for men to be attracted to women is the way we were created and the way things ought to be, but homosexuality is not.

Thus, when a straight dude says “he loves girls,” it does not automatically have such negative connotations involving children, though it does have connotations of immorality. But it is not the same as a homosexual saying he likes boys, which is much more likely to suggest pedophilia. Now, you may dislike that, but I think that’s the way it is. Has anyone persecuted you or harmed you for your comments?

AI: Secondly, homosexuality isn't my whole identity but it's still a part of me and I can talk of it same as of my other parts, not shut up on it to please such homophobes as you. You know, mentioning my sexuality few times isn't ‘flaunting it into your face', if you perceive it as such, it's your problem, not mine.

No one is forbidding you to talk about homosexuality. I never suggested or implied you shup up. Maybe you were thinking of someone else. Still, I have seen no heterosexuals making such an issue of their sexuality on Substack. You do not see heterosexuals giving parades either, where they act out their fantasies on the street in such indecent ways. Of course, I understand that not all homosexuals participate in such activities, but it is a feature of the gay scene that is found nowhere else.

In healthy people, sexuality is an important part of life, but only a part. It does not consume them or obsess them – of course even heterosexuals can have an unhealthy and unnatural obsession with porno, hookers or whatever.

AI: Lastly, gay relationship isn't just about sex, you know. It's also feelings, romance, family, sometimes even adopted kids, same as with straight ones. The fact that YOU see only sex and  #@!*& *#%@  here, tells much more about YOU than me.

That I see only sex in your post is a complete misreading of my comments, I said nothing of the kind, as anyone can see for themselves. Personally, I do not believe homosexuals should be allowed to adopt kids. Children need a mother and a father. Is anyone allowed to disagree with you on this? Will my ideas provoke a torrent of hostility?

The “gay rights” movement is becoming increasingly authoritarian, and includes extremists who want to forbid any and all criticism. That is a real threat to democracy. Many feel that children need exposure to masculinity and femininity when growing up, it is necessary to forming mature judgments concerning members of the opposite sex later in life. Does that make them haters or bigots? I don’t think so.

AI: Now, won't straight guys talk of their families, kids, wives? Would you like if I told you to ‘shut up about your sex life and keep it private’ when you mentioned your wife and kids? But if a gay guy does that, you all feign indignation over ‘public display of sex life’. Disgusting hypocrisy, and I do really hate hypocrisy.

Straight people talking about their wives and families has nothing to do with public displays in sex parades, or going on and on about their sexual identity. This is because men and women getting married is normal and natural, a well known and ordinary fact of life that does not require constant elaboration and emphasis.

AI: It's Woke Left Marxists who push LGBT+ stuff down on people, not gays. Moreover, they push more trans, ‘queer’ and ‘non-biny' stuff rather than gay one. In fact, they're actually homophobic and try to erase gays from our own movement. If you aren't aware of it, you haven't been paying attention.

And what about indoctrination of children in the classroom? The homosexual rights agenda is being pushed with increasing severity and intolerance. There are of course differences of emphasis in the homosexual community, I am very far from saying all homosexuals are the same.

AI: The Genocidal Old Testament which praises slavery and wars has ZERO authority for me.

In the next part I want to make some general comments on Old Testament law and its relationship to Christianity, but that is a different topic and not directly related to you. I am not appealing to biblical authority, but want to try and clarify some misconceptions. Before people decide to accept or reject the authority of the Jewish scriptures they should at least have some idea of what those writings teach.

Old Testament law in relation to Christianity

Since the Old Testament death penalties for various sins are commonly referred to as an argument against the justice and the validity of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, I thought I would attempt some clarification here. What follows will be obvious to people with any real understanding of the Bible, but unfortunately that sort of understanding is not much in evidence these days. So I am not embarrassed to make what ought to be some simple comments here.

In the beginning of the New Testament church, as we read in the book of Acts, the converts were Jews, as were the leaders, the apostles, and of course Christ himself. Paul says that when Christ appeared to him as a blinding light on the road to Damascus, Christ spoke to him in Hebrew.

When non-Christians began to join the church in significant numbers, this led to the obvious question as to how much of the Jewish law they were expected to follow. There was some division in the church on this point: “But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses” (Acts 15:5).

A church council gave the following decision:

And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:

Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.

For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

This, of course did not undo such basic moral laws as are explicitly reaffirmed in various places in the New Testament, such as: to honor our parents . . . to not steal or commit sexual immorality . . . to not covet (that is, desire things of this world excessively) . . . to not worship idols. But it did state that many aspects of Jewish law are irrelevant to us.

For example, the book of Hebrews nullifies all of the Jewish ceremonial and sacrificial laws (though they do have educational value as pointing toward the ultimate sacrifice of Christ). All of the animal sacrifices and regulations for the priesthood were done away in Jesus Christ.

The dietary laws were nullified by Christ, when he said that it is not what goes into us that defiles us, but what comes out of the heart.

Religious death penalties were also outlawed by Christ when he sent the woman away who was guilty of death according to the law of Moses (although Romans chapter 13 does give governments the power of the sword for the defense of society and the punishment of crime).

It says in the Torah that God’s laws may not be changed by man – but they may be changed by God himself. Abraham was given promises and commands previously unknown. Moses received yet further revelations, which added a great deal to what had been given to Abraham. David and Solomon added yet more new dimensions to the Jewish faith and worship, especially with the expansion of the kingdom and the construction of the temple. These were significant changes made not by men but by God. He can change his own laws, the same laws that man is forbidden to change.

So, except for such parts as are openly reaffirmed in the New Testament writings, the Jewish Old Testament laws do not apply to Christians – yet, this still does not answer the charge that the mere fact of certain laws shows the God of the Hebrew Scriptures to be harsh, primitive, and unworthy of any serious concept of God. So, I would like to address that charge here. Other Christian writers have dealt with that also, so I am not aiming to present some new discoveries, but some of their defenses have been somewhat wishy washy and defensive in my opinion.

Some more specific answers

So, here are some points to consider, especially when it comes to (a) slavery, (b) the death penalties, and (c) the conquest of the land of Canaan.

Death penalties

(1) Many of the Jewish laws were never intended to be applied to the world at large. They were meant specifically for the Jews.

(2) They were meant for the Jews in a time of hardship and danger, just as martial law that is imposed even in democracies in case of emergency is harsher than ordinary law.

(3) The number of death penalties for criminal offenses would be very small. It was not as if thousands of people were being lined up and executed with great frequency. The Israelites were a tightly knit and cohesive community, and one execution for disobedience to parents, bestiality or some other offense would have significant effect.

(4) Crimes committed directly in the presence of God, after his many interventions and deliverances, would call for a severer penalty than they would in ordinary occasions. If you drop a lighted match on a city parking lot or in a dry forest, the same action can have disastrously different consequences.

(5) God, as the giver of life and the source of morality and law, has the right to impose stricter penalties at various times, just as parents have the right to impose stricter controls on a five year old child than they would on a fifteen year old.

Slavery and war

About slavery, it was commonly practiced all over the ancient world. It was not race-based chattel slavery such as we had in the US. People commonly became slaves (1) as punishment for some crime (2) for indebtedness or (3) being taken captive in war.

The Jewish Bible does not praise slavery, it places limits on it. So, slavery in the Jewish society of that time was more like the system of indentured servanthood. Servants / slaves had some rights and protections. They would be astonished and amazed at our modern practice of tossing babies in the trash as if they were nothing more than banana peels or empty egg shells.

About wars, Churchill, Truman and FDR visited destruction on Germany and Japan in ways that far exceeded human death tolls beyond anything that could have been imaginable in Old Testament times. The most destructive air raid in all of history, the firebombing of Tokyo in the spring of 1945, caused perhaps as many as 100,000 casualties in a single night. Moreover, that air raid was specifically planned to maximize the amount of death and destruction.

The conquest of Canaan was God’s wrath on the Canaanites after centuries of iniquity – and God, as creator of the universe, and the giver of life and death, surely must have at least as much authority to kill and destroy as USAF and RAF generals and political leaders.

People who pretend to be so upset about the events of the Old Testament while remaining indifferent to abortion are inconsistent, to put it politely.

More importantly, the spiritual, moral, and philosophical content of the Torah, and the books of poetry, history and prophecy, go far beyond slavery, death penalties, and slaughtering the Canaanites. There is a profound spirituality to the book, which shows us a God of infinite wisdom, perfection, and power.

This God, who created the universe, engineered and constructed the human body, and created all the marvels of the universe and the natural world of earth, is not only inconceivably vast. He also has a personal dimension, and is concerned about as individuals. What we say and do, how we treat others, are all matters of concern. We are not lost in a cold and silent universe. There are love, morality, truth and beauty at the very heart of creation, and we can appreciate them only because we have been created by God in his image.

This concept of an infinite, yet moral and also personal God, as mediated through the teachings of biblical Christianity, has had an incalculable influence on the world. True, those teachings did not turn the world into a paradise – they were not intended to. The world has been sinful since the fall of Adam and Eve and will remain so until Christ returns, but it is also a place of great beauty, meaning and purpose, much of which has been revealed through the pages of the divinely inspired Tanakh.

Of course, the problem of evil remains, but what does secularism have to contribute in that area? Exactly nothing. Saying that life has no higher meaning and purpose does nothing to mitigate the pains and the evils of life. The problem of evil still remains. But in the light of God as revealed in Scripture there will be a final resolution of this problem.

Atheists say that is a vain hope, a deception, a delusion – but it is their denial of higher spiritual realities that is vanity and delusion. There is a higher purpose for us in this life and a continued life in the kingdom of God. This purpose includes moral laws that are necessary for our well-being. We can see the results of such denial all around us in our crumbling world today.

We need God, and we need God’s laws.

Common criticisms of organized religion

AI: People who practiced Inquisition, witch hunt, Crusades, Black slavery, Native American genocide, burning alive of scientists and gays should SHUT UP on modern society forever, you're evil genocidal monsters just like your ‘God’.

People who force rape victims to give birth to ‘babies’ of their rapists are vile, immoral sick torturers worthy of their Inquisition heroes.

Much of this has nothing at all to do with biblical Christianity. The Inquisition, witch hunts, the Crusades, Black slavery, the conquest of North America by the Europeans, the burning alive of scientists and gays – such things happened (though I never heard of homosexuals being burned) a thousand years and more after the advent of Christianity. Some of them have occurred in other parts of the world without the benefit of Christian influence.

The Inquisition and the Crusades were fruits of the medieval Catholic Church – a massive and corrupt political power structure that had nothing at all to do with New Testament Christianity.

As to slavery, that has been practiced all over the world for thousands of years. The Muslims were taking slaves out of Africa when the Europeans did not even know what Africa was (there were three main routes: across the Sahara to Egypt and North Africa; to the Red Sea and thence to Egypt; and up the east coast of Africa directly to the Persian Gulf).

The native American genocide? The replacement of one people by another through conquest has been a common historical experience in every part of the world. Charles Darwin thought that the replacement of the primitive North American savages by the superior white races was merely evolution in action.

As to the burning alive of scientists and gays, that was not practiced in the New Testament, and has never been practiced in many countries. Even in the reign of the unbiblical Catholic church those were not common practices.

In all of this we should not forget the crimes of modern secularists either. According to their theory of advancement through the abandonment of religious superstition, the 20th century in Europe should have been the most rational, advanced and peaceful in all of history. After all, never in the entire recorded history of Europe had the forces of rationalism been so strongly in the ascendant, and for such a long period of time.

Nevertheless, in spite of the widespread abandonment of religion and the adoption on a wide scale of the secular rationalism, that period was one of the most bloody and destructive in the history of the world. And, if crimes committed in cultures where religion played a much more dominant role reflect negatively on religious faith in God, surely the same logic should cause people to reflect deeply on the failures of modernism and secular faith in man.

AI: People who force rape victims to give birth to ‘babies’ of their rapists are vile, immoral sick torturers worthy of their Inquisition heroes.

As to anti-abortion activities, that is more of an authentically Christian activity, yet what sort of policies Christians are to advocate in our modern situation are not clearly spelled out in Scripture.

As to women being forced to give birth to babies conceived by rape, that has nothing to do with the vast majority of abortions, which are committed for other reasons entirely. Women who have been victims of rape are allowed to get abortions after all. Personally I believe that the baby should not be killed even then, but I am not agitating for any political or legal reforms in that area. And, women can find forgiveness in Christ for the sin of abortion – but it should be recognized as sin.

I believe the right thing to do would be to continue with the pregnancy and put the child up for adoption, but if a woman made a different decision who is going to stop her? Are the Christian fundamentalists ever going to get such control of the legal system as to impose their values on an unwilling public? That seems highly unlikely. And, the experience of prohibition in the past and gun control in our own time show that strict imposition of policies on an unwilling public is easier said than done.

AI: People who equate pre fetal unconscious pre human sperm who does not feel pain and indeed anything with a fully developed human being are ignorant retards or lying manipulators in addition.

Oh? Says who? Where do you get your values from? Do you just follow your own feelings in a cold, silent, impersonal and amoral universe? What if you are wrong?

From the moment the egg is fertilized it is processing nutrients, growing, developing. It is alive. It comes from humans and so is human in its origins, and becomes a human if allowed to develop, so is human in its end. It is a living human being and not just a blob of cells. People who disagree with you on this may do so out of careful thought and deep feeling, and are by no means ignorant retards or lying manipulators.

We can debate these and many other questions all day, but in the end, we will be called to account by God for all we have said and done.